Introduction
My answer is yes and no. Yes for a dual weapon system, where the ATGM is really strong and No for a single weapon system, since it relies only on the autocannon.
Overall informations
Autocannons start with the caliber of 20mm and gone up to 76mm. These are some examples of variants and manufactures .
20x102mm : M621 (CP 20) | Nexter
20x139mm : RH202 | Rheinmetall
25x137mm : M242 Bushmaster | MDD
30x113mm : M230 Chaingun | ATK
30x165mm : 2A42 | KBP
30x170mm : RARDEN | BAE
30x173mm : Mk44 Bushmaster II | ATK
30x250mm : RMK30 | Rheinmetall
35x228mm : Bushmaster III | ATK
40x364mmR: Bofors 40mm | Bofors
40x365mm : Bushmaster IV | ATK
57x438mm : Bofors 57 | Bofors
76x636mm : OTO Melara 76 mm | Oto Melara
The blue marked calibers are NATO standard as far as i know, though there might be more standard calibers, yet i didn't found a good list for those.
What we know now, is that there are a lot of different calibers and every vehicle or nation decided to use some of them more or less. I should mention here, that caliber size and length is important when it comes to performance, but there are other factors as well, which are important to know, like for example the barrellength, used ammunition (yes ammunition has improved over the years), rate of fire, barrelwear, shellspeed, range, shellweight.
As for the latter one i found something interesting, despite it was used to compare calibers for "AA" service (Anti Air) from the Australian Government in "Limitations of Guns as a Defence against Manoeuvering Air Weapons"(missiles).
You see that even some of them have the same caliber, but a different cartridge length. Assuming that a longer cartridge improves your penetration power is given, but not the only reason, as i have said before, there are more values that you need to take into count.
General assumption
Barrellength = range, velocity, accuracy, dispersion due barrelswinging
Cartridgelength = penetration (mass of the projectile), range, velocity
Calibersize = penetration, rate of fire
For example the M230 Chaingun has L/42 while the M230LF has L/60 as barrellength, although it should be mentioned you increase weight and recoilforce with it . While this seems to be a good increase, you won't ever be on the same penetration levels as a 30x165/170/173mm cartridge, the difference in length is just too big of an influence in penetration.
The main reason why iam posting this, is that calibers have a restriction even if they are in the same size , the length does make a difference in possible performance. Assuming that the Developers of Armored Warfare have read books and magazines regarding this , they should be aware that balancing or rather tiering by caliber next to introduction date and possible armor, mobility etc. is important.
Let us see what vehicles use which caliber in AW.
20x102mm : XM800T(T3) [not sure about this actually]
20x139mm : M113(T1), LAV150(T2),AMX 10P(T3), VBL(T6), Wiesel(T7)
25x137mm : LAV150(T2), M2 Bradley(T6), CRAB(T9)
30x113mm : CRAB(T9)
30x165mm : BMP-2(T5)/3(T6)/3M(T7) , BMD-2(T5)/4(T7) , BMPT(T6)/Ramka(T8)/BMPT2(T9)
30x170mm : Fox(T5), Warrior(T8)
30x250mm : Wiesel(T7)
57x438mm : BPz 57(T5)
76x636mm : Draco(T9)
Interesting here is, that i wouldn't put the BPz 57 in a higher tier, despite having a 57mm autocannon i didn't find any data on its possible penetration so, and the overall design and production date, fit the tier quite good.
On the other hand i find the Draco, despite having a big gun, it shouldn't be tier 9. Tier 8 would be a good tier with the 76mm, also you need to keep in mind, when they introduce the Rooikat, that this vehicle uses the exact same weapon and depending on where they tier this vehicle, the Draco should be the same tier then.
While i agree that this might be confusing or just my own opinion, but i have in mind possible vehicles that use the same weapon system, the introduction date, the design (mobility, armor, utility, task, other weapons ?) and if it makes sense. For example the RARDEN weapon system is one of the worst systems you can have, due its mechanics itself. This results in a good tier choice for the Fox, but i don't understand why the Warrior with the exact same weapon system, is 3 tiers higher. Tier 6 would be a good choice here.
As for the main target of this, the CRAB, this one should be the successor of the VBL which means tier 7 and not anything higher.
My changes would be:
Warrior T6 (it is not better than the Bradley)
Crab T7 (caliber limitation)
Ramka T7 (not sure)
BMPT2 T8 (not sure, have no intel about the ATGMs)
Draco T8 (for now)
Future Vehicles :
Puma T8 (Spike[ATGM] would be the only reason to put it higher)
K21 T7/8 (ATGM would be a reason to place it T8) / no armor for T9
Ajax T8 (maybe T9 , depending on the ATGM)
Conclusion
They really need to have the caliber in mind , when they decide to select a vehicle for a possible tier. I would take real life values as a basic guideline and tweak them a bit to add a variety to the game, while having in mind, that there are limits. Excuses like it is a "arcade" game are rather pointless, since all vehicles ingame are based of real projects and pushing or pressing vehicles into tiers is never a good decision regarding balance.
Sources
Regarding the first image a PDF from the Australian Government
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a426717.pdf
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a426717.pdf
Regarding the second imgae and the comparison in caliber difference
Regarding the CRAB picture and the manufacture Cockerill / CMI (bottom right ->brochure-> the pdf file)
just a question what tier would be the best place be for the Fennek(if they ever put it in and i would like them doing it(only NL/DE tank that has some reason to be in the game))
ReplyDeleteAssuming that Obsidian keeps their current choices for balance, you could place it on tier 10, just because Obsidian is giving reasons to do so.
DeleteHowever for real, the Fennek has only 7.62mm or 12.7mm Gun systems and 40mm GL or the Dutch Missile version with SPIKE ATGM's .
Here it depends on how good the Spike missiles are and if they get their stuff together and tier well.
This vehicle would have a similar playstyle as the Swingfire, just with better missiles and on a wheeled chassis, which means i would put it somewhere between mid and high tier, like tier 7 could be a decent choice, but this is higly depended on the SPIKE performance and APS/ERA/CAGE mechanics in higher tiers
really that high for the atgm one? what if they did it with the 40mm GL.
DeleteSpike is pretty "new" actually and from what i've seen it can penetrate something like 1100mm or as other sites state like 800mm, though i can't deliver evidence of these, nor would i, since those numbers should be seen as really suspicious.
DeleteOn the other hand, it depends on what OBE wants to do, since from what i have seen the Dutch Fennek with SPIKE has 4 launcher tubes and SPIKE will be used on the IFV Puma from germany as well, so they need to pay attention to this.
Balancing and tiering goes hand in hand, and i have my doubts that OBE can balance vehicles for the right tiers.
Iam against the 40mm GL stuff in general, since the velocity and possible penetration is low and you only have HEAT or HE. There i would assume the only implementation of the Fennek as a recon is with the SPIKE system that the Dutch Army uses.
To make it short :
OBE picks the power of the ATGM (SPIKE)
Fennek should be max T7
fair points, I do hope though that they will add it(tottally not because its the only semi-viable vehicle that the dutch worked on that could be added to the game) although i don't see them adding it.
ReplyDeleteSurplus ammunition isn't just limited to the U.S. forces, however - it can also come from outside the U.S. An example of that is the cartridge first used in the SKS carbine by the Soviet Union in the Second World War - the 7.62x39mm rifle cartridge. Winchester primers for sale
ReplyDelete